tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post1237556513782855873..comments2023-11-05T05:17:45.320-05:00Comments on Model Minority "Thugs, Feminists and Boom Bap": Asher Roth and Why Rappers Need "Nappy Headed Ho's"M.Dot.http://www.blogger.com/profile/05113752779973426025noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-26339595469140460582009-05-13T13:32:00.000-04:002009-05-13T13:32:00.000-04:00MB,
Girl. Your t-shirt in your avi is crazy.
I wa...MB,<br /><br />Girl. Your t-shirt in your avi is crazy.<br />I want one:)<br /><br />Thank you for stopping by.<br /><br />Im bout to come join Quirky Black girls.<br /><br />~m.dotM.Dot.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05113752779973426025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-3062966886435472932009-05-13T08:21:00.000-04:002009-05-13T08:21:00.000-04:00Thanks for this model minority! i def. have been t...Thanks for this model minority! i def. have been trying to escape asher roth but he's everywhere. I really like what you and tricia say about "controlling" black women in these videos. Such an important point!<br /><br />And thank you for sharing your experience with street harassment. I don't know that men ever really understand what that's like . . .MBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15346031602932566058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-74071667721492828822009-05-09T15:05:00.000-04:002009-05-09T15:05:00.000-04:00Well the cesspool mentality was already here and j...Well the cesspool mentality was already here and just manifested itself in the music. Then some people who are fed a steady diet of mayhem, destruction, self hatred and objectification just carry on the cycle. White men are running these labels and they want to have the lowest common denominator "artists" because they're getting paid well to do so. They're not interested in uplifting music that elevates consciousness. And Black people are either too stupid or too callous to get it. Everybody else is stepping up to get paid (managers, lawyers, PR, etc) while we self-destruct AND THEY DON'T CARE. If Black people had more self-respect and knew who they were and weren't AND STOP SUPPORTING THE CESSPOOL then we wouldn't have this problem. What you describe on a weekly basis about these males do and say to you on the street is proof of the cesspool, but it has to be addressed - not ignored. It only escalates from thoughts to words to ACTIONS. That male that made a comment about wanting to stick himself in you will likely attempt to carry that out on some female IF he hasn't already done so.Faith at Acts of Faith Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02150553143062604249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-2877873622076090472009-05-08T12:57:00.000-04:002009-05-08T12:57:00.000-04:00D3. So at the end of the day it all boils down to ...D3. So at the end of the day it all boils down to power and how various classes within society exert power over other beings that exist. Hip-Hop artists are the tip of the iceberg. Whether it be hazing for frats apartheid in South Africa, or two young men arguing over which block they rep, it is all power. I wonder how large a view you are going to take on that one :)<br /><br />G3. There is more to every person than what we thought...<br /><br />G4. I'm going to push back a tad, I don't think that listening to Mobb deep taps into something dyfunctional within me. It does remind me of where I come from. It reminds me of of specific choices that I made that were positive and negative.<br /><br />If hiphop was my only way out...and I had one verse to spit to get signed, am I spitting Mos' verse from the rapeover. Q-Tip Industry rule 1080 or am I singing the catchiest hook possible about my power over women, and other men, and not corporate power over the artform that is the voice of my culture? which is actually controlling me? If you think about it conforming makes the most logical sense.<br />======<br />We are a community.<br />We are all connected.<br />It makes sense in the short term.<br />But in the long. Dude. Super Global Fail.<br />Its like that short money. I don't want<br />no short money. I want long money.<br />I don't want short money. I want serenity.<br /><br />We have a Black President and more Black teens are killing each other than ever before.<br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28411203<br /><br />This is why kicking the Trinity Doctrine instead of the rape over is fucked up. Yeah Born alone, die alone, I get it, BUT in between you are apart of a community ock.<br /><br />I hear you re the $$. Its been times this year where my pockets were so flat that I was like damn, I could really, really, really start hustlin'. I mean really. So, I am not making moral judgment. Our choices are limited to our options. I get that. HOWEVER, I also know that we are apart of a community. Whether we acknowledge it or not.<br /><br />Thats cool if you don' think that it taps into something dysfunctional within you. But Imma counter w/ Maenen's words:<br /><br /><br />Hip-Hop artists are the tip of the iceberg. Whether it be hazing for frats apartheid in South Africa, or two young men arguing over which block they rep, it is all power. I wonder how large a view you are going to take on that one :)<br />========<br />I take a pretty expansive view.<br />I am preparing to write a critique of Van Jones and his Green Justice movement. In doing my research for the piece I am learning that much of the language around Green future can be used to argue against the Trinity Doctrine on some mental health type ish.<br /><br />No, I can deal with all of it, but I pray that I am a light for others coming along. I don't have to do all of it. I just have to do my part<br />and not give up, even tho most of the time, I really want to.<br /><br />Don't you know how much richer I would be if I started a site and talked shit about<br />Black women all day. I would not be as broke as I am now :)<br /><br />However, when my blog readers come to town, we hand out. Readers regularly write me to thank me for my posts. This is special. How many people, who are unpublished, have this kind of interaction with an audience, around a "niche" topic nonetheless.<br /><br />I have been tutoring young people for the last two months and it has been interesting to see <br />how much teaching involves motivation, building their trust, AND teaching the material. It is exhaustive, rewarding and necessary. Just like this writing shit is.M.Dot.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05113752779973426025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-18373745135936187052009-05-08T02:48:00.000-04:002009-05-08T02:48:00.000-04:00G4...continued. Those choices made me the person ...G4...continued. Those choices made me the person who I am today for better or worse, but luckily I love myself so I definitely dont mind hearing about my prior youthful transgressions.<br /><br />-ChaceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-12880503919816976602009-05-08T02:39:00.000-04:002009-05-08T02:39:00.000-04:00Late night thoughts again while on twitter:
D3. S...Late night thoughts again while on twitter:<br /><br />D3. So at the end of the day it all boils down to power and how various classes within society exert power over other beings that exist. Hip-Hop artists are the tip of the iceberg. Whether it be hazing for frats apartheid in South Africa, or two young men arguing over which block they rep, it is all power. I wonder how large a view you are going to take on that one :)<br /><br />G3. There is more to every person than what we thought...<br /><br />G4. I'm going to push back a tad, I don't think that listening to Mobb deep taps into something dyfunctional within me. It does remind me of where I come from. It reminds me of of specific choices that I made that were positive and negative. <br /><br />H. All in all I think we live in an incredibly violent, power based culture. When blacks have been subjected to certain systems of oppresssion and gentrification they are going to articulate their struggle in their own way. Corporations market it because the burbs buy it, and try to emulate it. If hiphop was my only way out...and I had one verse to spit to get signed, am I spitting Mos' verse from the rapeover. Q-Tip Industry rule 1080 or am I singing the catchiest hook possible about my power over women, and other men, and not corporate power over the artform that is the voice of my culture? which is actually controlling me? If you think about it conforming makes the most logical sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-35208076853640255972009-05-07T12:31:00.000-04:002009-05-07T12:31:00.000-04:00Chace,
I just left you the following message on t...Chace,<br /><br />I just left you the following message on twitter:<br /><br />Yo. I can hear the hope and LOVE of black people in your writing voice/comments. It is a pleasant surprise.<br /><br />D2. Those rappers who use the trinity framework made a conscientus(ignore spelling erros) decision to use that framework. Each rapper who uses that framework for their flows makes the same decision that the black actors who put on black face did. (FYI) Hanging is less a race based phenomena than one based on power. In this country it was used specifically for black males but outside of our borders anyone and any animal can get hung. I saw a picture of an elephant hung.<br /><br />========<br />Yo. Peep game. You just upped me to something.<br />Rape is about Power, Right?<br />Hanging is about Power, right?<br />The racist as decision to observe and perpetuate the Trinity Doctrine is about power.<br />OH snap. Thank you boo. You just elevated me:)<br />I had been talking w/ Jeremy Levin via email about the fact that I use the term the "white consumption of Black death" to connote the power of the young white consumer. But I never thought of related it to the power relationships around Rape and Lynching.<br /><br />Chace, Fuck, we done messed around and named this shit The Trinity Doctrine. AWE.SEME!<br /><br />G2. It means that there is more to every neighborhood drug dealer than we thought. <br />========<br />My favorite drug dealer is is dig dug, a reformed D boy, Mike Savage Listening,<br />father of five AND HUSBAND. He is my brother.<br />These cat usta kick me out my room in '89 to bag cracks. That being said, Yes, there IS more to drug dealers than we thought.<br /><br />Shit, there is more to Black women than we thought.<br /><br /><br />It means that we intelligent people who grew up in dilapidated neighborhoods have the ability to stay connected to their neighborhood through certain music.<br />======<br />Imma go ahead and push back on this.<br />Read this piece I wrote about a year ago...<br />I think it was my first racialicious piece. You will see where and how I have grown & why<br />I think the fact that we survived and listen to the music to connect is indicative of a dysfunction w/in us.<br />http://www.racialicious.com/2008/05/08/hip-hop-patriarchy-my-struggle-with-mobb-deep/<br /><br />Light,Joy & Justice,<br /><br />~m.dotModel Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-76992908787845167252009-05-07T02:23:00.000-04:002009-05-07T02:23:00.000-04:00Same format...I can't help myself:
D2. Those rap...Same format...I can't help myself:<br /><br />D2. Those rappers who use the trinity framework made a conscientus(ignore spelling erros) decision to use that framework. Each rapper who uses that framework for their flows makes the same decision that the black actors who put on black face did. (FYI) Hanging is less a race based phenomena than one based on power. In this country it was used specifically for black males but outside of our borders anyone and any animal can get hung. I saw a picture of an elephant hung.<br /><br />G2. It means that there is more to every neighborhood drug dealer than we thought. <br /><br />It means that we intelligent people who grew up in dilapidated neighborhoods have the ability to stay connected to their neighborhood through certain music.<br /><br />Maybe they are realllllly talented artists.<br /><br />Maybe we admired that person and now that we have left that world but are still enamored by the idea of what that person means.<br /><br />quick thoughts...I can't sleep at all<br /><br />-ChaceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-56122615766225630922009-05-07T01:46:00.000-04:002009-05-07T01:46:00.000-04:00Hey Chace boo....
I had forgotten that I warned y...Hey Chace boo....<br /><br />I had forgotten that I warned you about this piece. LOLS.<br /><br /><br /><br />B. Are we only speaking about people who are signed? How many "underground" rappers are there who dont fit into that framework.<br />Talking about the Trinity only. (No matrix.)<br /><br />C. White people are buying The Roots, Talib, Mos...etc They are the ones going to the concerts. So while a group of whites supports "black death" I would assert that there is another group who support different more meaningful genres of rap.<br />I care less about whether whites support underground, and more with the fact that corportization of hip has coincided with its MASS appeal, an explosion in white consumers the marginalization of Boom Bap cats.<br /><br />D. When whites consume hip-hop isn't it just escapism? Why not learn about this other world of pimps, ho's, and shoot outs; if you lived in the same neighborhood for 15 years, your parents drive an audi and teling you since birth your only job is to graduate from college?<br />====<br />There escapism comes at a price. Reinforcement and of Black men as super guerrilla thugs that kill bitches, pimp hos and sell crack all day.<br /><br />Black men were hung for white entertainment, historically. The current consumption of Black death is connected to this history of Black violence as white entertainment.<br /><br /><br />F. Suburban life from what I have seen 3rd person looks like it is all about smoking weed, partying, and talking to girls, so to that extent how has Asher failed?<br />=========<br />Read Jonathans piece. In some ways Jonathan feels that Asher just scratched the surface,<br />and arguably in some ways he has.<br /><br />G. As someone who grew up in the "hood" I listen to the Clipse, Mobb Deep, and Biggie is my favorite rapper of all time. Because they are all ridiculously talented at what they do and what they choose to rap about. If Prodigy came out on some "intelligent" rap people would throw their t.v. at him crazy! That isn't who he is or what he tries to portay yet with all three of those artists there is a reason why, and all of these examples the emcees always express remorse and guilt. Which at some base level for those of us who have experienced hood living means something different than to the masses.<br />=====<br />Momma Im So Sorry is my ISH. Dude. Keys open doors too. True story, that albums corresponds to a dark period in my life, it is what it is.<br /><br />Which at some base level for those of us who have experienced hood living means something different than to the masses.<br />===<br />Like what?<br /><br />~m.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-83363338000501736952009-05-07T01:38:00.000-04:002009-05-07T01:38:00.000-04:00@ Shelfrog.
I WOULD LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to ...@ Shelfrog. <br /><br />I WOULD LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to see that.<br /><br />Lets get 10 videos and take the Black women out.<br /><br />Shit. Lets do the same thing for the songs.<br /><br />I am also thinking about framing the Gangsta/Thug/Ho trinity as a public health issue? Lightbulb, no?<br /><br />Im inspired too:)Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-80251066007344806782009-05-07T00:37:00.000-04:002009-05-07T00:37:00.000-04:00A few quick points:
A. Yes, there are various "m...A few quick points:<br /><br />A. Yes, there are various "machines" that at some level control and shape every aspect of popular culture. Do I believe that young black youth are taste-makers? Well yes, but what are they consistently choosing as their taste/ or rather what is hot? In my opinion it is the aforementioned gangsta/pimp/ho trinity. <br /><br />B. Are we only speaking about people who are signed? How many "underground" rappers are there who dont fit into that framework.<br /><br />C. White people are buying The Roots, Talib, Mos...etc They are the ones going to the concerts. So while a group of whites supports "black death" I would assert that there is another group who support different more meaningful genres of rap. <br /><br />D. When whites consume hip-hop isn't it just escapism? Why not learn about this other world of pimps, ho's, and shoot outs; if you lived in the same neighborhood for 15 years, your parents drive an audi and teling you since birth your only job is to graduate from college?<br /><br />E. Never cite a quote from J Hood because he is a liar! Tales from the hood was supposed to drop since the summer of "01"<br /><br />F. Suburban life from what I have seen 3rd person looks like it is all about smoking weed, partying, and talking to girls, so to that extent how has Asher failed?<br /><br />G. As someone who grew up in the "hood" I listen to the Clipse, Mobb Deep, and Biggie is my favorite rapper of all time. Because they are all ridiculously talented at what they do and what they choose to rap about. If Prodigy came out on some "intelligent" rap people would throw their t.v. at him crazy! That isn't who he is or what he tries to portay yet with all three of those artists there is a reason why, and all of these examples the emcees always express remorse and guilt. Which at some base level for those of us who have experienced hood living means something different than to the masses.<br /><br />-ChaceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-57689345676306149982009-05-06T23:20:00.000-04:002009-05-06T23:20:00.000-04:00M.Dot, you issued what I consider a direct challen...M.Dot, you issued what I consider a direct challenge "What would rap videos look like without Black women?" that I think everyone with access to video editing software ought to take up. Therefore, here's a blog where folks can answer that challenge <A HREF="http://hiphopwomen.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">Where the black women at?</A> I plan to play myself as soon as I can.<br />Thanks for the inspiration!Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10074687733518374067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-91551513673595689702009-05-05T14:13:00.000-04:002009-05-05T14:13:00.000-04:00@GG,
My argument is that the combination of white...@GG,<br /><br />My argument is that the combination of white consumption<br />of Black death, the corporatization of hip hop,<br />the consolidation of Urban radio, the Telecom Act and Rappers desire to get cake, has resulted in creating a destructive Gangsta/Pimp/Ho trinity as the dominant narrative in hip hop.<br /><br />You have only said that I was wrong,<br />you have not offered a counter argument accounting for the ascension of the Gangsta/Pimp/Ho trinity,<br />the greater consumption of white music,<br />and the Corporatization of Rap etc.<br /><br />When you find a counter argument, I am open to <br />hearing it.<br /><br /><br />~m.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-5882123706821138832009-05-05T11:16:00.000-04:002009-05-05T11:16:00.000-04:00@Jeremy - You wrote - "White kids love Hov for the...@Jeremy - You wrote - "White kids love Hov for the same reason black kids, asian kids, and latinos do: He's one of the most prolific MCs of our generation."<br /><br />It is incorrect to assume that kids from different backgrounds are attracted to a particular artist for the same reason.Penni Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454668427624327572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-77373031098683206552009-05-05T00:49:00.000-04:002009-05-05T00:49:00.000-04:00I made my argument very plain; you even quoted it....<B>I made my argument very plain; you even quoted it.</B> <br /><br /><br /><I>Telling me that I am wrong, does not constitute an argument</I><B>Any claim (including telling someone that their argument is wrong) can ground an argument as long as there is support for that claim. <br /><br />What do you think you're doing when you refute the argument that gangsta rap has no ill effects on beliefs and behavior?<br /><br /><br />And, by the way, I'm not angry, just sick of smart rap fans and activists continuing to offer the same poor argument.</B><I>I work very hard to maintain a space<br />on this site that allows folks to feel safe<br />talking about things that are difficult,<br />race, gender, class, homophobia etc.<br /><br /><br />This doesn't mean that there is no room for dissent, and disagreement, as these two things are necessary for discourse and they make me a better writer.<br /><br /><br />However, your dismissiveness and anger is not constructive to maintaining the above in this space. Please refrain.</I><B>This is a fair point, actually. It was rude of me to come to your front yard and take a dump. And I was wrong to take such a dismissive tone with a young aspiring writer and critic. I should have been more sympathetic given my past.<br /><br />I'd like to ask you this though: is your goal of making people (yourself included) feel safe here more important than finding something resembling "truth?"</B>gordon gartrellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07453017150507048961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-77745890197696848372009-05-03T17:12:00.000-04:002009-05-03T17:12:00.000-04:00Hey Kez,
Thank you for reading, commenting and sh...Hey Kez,<br /><br />Thank you for reading, commenting and sharing.<br /><br />I love when the lurkers leave comments. LOL's.<br /><br />White dudes listen to both the mainstream and the underground cats. I agree with that.<br /><br />Oh. Yes I am defining the distinction by record sales, hence why I posted who has and hasn't went platinum.<br /><br />~m.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-57642944935138543712009-05-03T17:02:00.000-04:002009-05-03T17:02:00.000-04:00GG,
Anger is not an argument.
It is clear that y...GG,<br /><br />Anger is not an argument.<br /><br />It is clear that you are angry.<br /><br />While you have been derisive, dismissive,<br />smug and condescending, you have yet to tell<br />me what you arguement is, so I am lead to conclude that you don't have one.<br /><br />I asked you what your arguement was,<br />and your response was,<br />"My argument is that the simplistic argument you offer here is inappropriately ideological, poorly supported, and just flat out wrong."<br /><br />Telling me that I am wrong, does not constitute<br />an argument.<br /><br />Anger is a secondary emotion.<br />Our anger is typically correlated to our fear.<br />The angrier we are, the more scared we tend to be. The question is, what are you scared of?<br /><br />I work very hard to maintain a space<br />on this site that allows folks to feel safe<br />talking about things that are difficult,<br />race, gender, class, homophobia etc.<br /><br />This doesn't mean that there is no room for dissent, and disagreement, as these two things are necessary for discourse and they make me a better writer.<br /><br />However, your dismissiveness and anger is not constructive to maintaining the above in this space. Please refrain.<br /><br />~M.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-54038597485778550292009-05-03T16:44:00.000-04:002009-05-03T16:44:00.000-04:00Hi Jeremy,
This most certainly is a topic that de...Hi Jeremy,<br /><br />This most certainly is a topic that deserves<br />a longer discussion. I am open and available.<br /><br />In general, I think it's misleading to continuously chalk this to the big bad media giants and the thrones of racist white consumers. <br />=====<br />Why?<br /><br />I think folks like (BET president) Stephen Hill and Russell Simmons have a vested interest in making us believe that it's a white consumption thing - it removes all agency from THEIR actions that lead to negative images of black people.<br />==========<br />I am not aware of Stephen and Russel EVER addressing the racial impact of any of their work. They are either silent or say "Artist are telling real stories that are ignored by the media." However you are right in that the conclusion is the same, no agency on their end.<br /><br />Lil Wayne makes me feel comfortable because he has mastered the poetic art of alliteration. C'mon - "Safe sex is great sex, better wear a latex/'Cause you don't want that late text/That "I think I'm late," text". That's just artful. <br />=====<br />This issue isn't with YOU enjoying it.<br />It is about the consumption of Black death, by Black and Non Black people for the purpose of corporate profit.<br /><br />The issue is with 2009 rap music serving as a proxy for Black life for many non Black people.<br /><br />Crack destroyed my family and my hood and my City, Oakland California. What is entertainment for many people reminds me of the destruction that occurred when Crack came.<br /><br />When I listen to the Clipse, and Ghostface<br />or watch The Wire, that ain't just entertainment for me, that shit reminds me of <br />the destruction that happened in my life.<br /><br />And I'm sorry - just as Jada says "there aren't enough black hip-hop consumers to explain a platinum artist," all 1,000,000 of Weezy's consumers aren't all white.<br />=====<br />I.have.never.said.that.hip.hops.consumers.were.<br />all.white.<br /><br />I see that you have followed me on Twitter. Many of my readers on on there a well.<br />Welcome.<br /><br />~M.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-37293534144276286842009-05-02T10:36:00.000-04:002009-05-02T10:36:00.000-04:00While rappers do rap about "thug life" and undoubt...While rappers do rap about "thug life" and undoubtedly influence how men treat the women<br />around them, in an article at On The Issues Magazine, "Intimate Lines: Teaching Daughters About Lollipop Politics," Margot Mifflin describes Lil Wayne's song "Lollipop" as being one of a kind because Wayne delights in giving a woman pleasure.<br /><br />http://www.ontheissuesmagazine.com/2009spring/2009spring_Mifflin.php<br /><br />Also, in regards to cat-calling on the street, Hollaback NYC has some tips:<br /><br />http://www.ontheissuesmagazine.com/cafe2/article/37On The Issues Magazinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01481039520273240785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-28737948104555957502009-05-01T13:51:00.001-04:002009-05-01T13:51:00.001-04:00I said nothing abut a gangsta rap/conscious dichot...<I>I said nothing abut a gangsta rap/conscious dichotomy. Those are your words. I mentioned the Gangsta/Pimp/Ho Trinity, which is dominant narrative in corporate hip hop in 2009.</I><B>Nice try. What exactly is then, then?:</B><I>When a Black male artist decides not to represent the Gangsta/Thug/Pimp trinity, he risks committing career suicide, at the worse, or being severely marginalized at the least. <br />The Roots, Nas, Common, Kweli, Dead Pres, De La Soul, Doom, Lupe Fiasco, Wale, Mos Def and Little Brother are relegated to greater or lesser extent, to hip hops margins largely because, by and large, of White teen male desire for Black death.</I><B>What you’re doing is lumping artists into groups based on the amount of “black death” in their content. Whether you use the word “conscious” is irrelevant. So call them “artists who trade in black death” and “artists who don’t.” It really doesn’t matter.</B><I>What is, in fact, your argument, and what is it based on?</I><B>My argument is that the simplistic argument you offer here is inappropriately ideological, poorly supported, and just flat out wrong. My argument is not based on a rigid ideological construct; it is based on a knowledge of (the almost entirely terrible) black left academic discourse on rap, my many years as a progressive black student of politics, and my entire life experiences as a hip hop head who has thought extensively about rap, race, and corporate “control.”</B><I>Rap no longer needs black listeners in the same way that American Capitalism no longer needs Detroit.</I><B>This is not an argument; it’s a slogan.</B><I>-In 2006 whites made up 60.1% of consumers of rap, blacks made up 25%. Hip Hop Wars. pg.88 MediaMark, http://www.mediamark.com/)</I><B>First, these attempts to reflect hip hop consumption patterns are doomed because they fail to take into account the fluid lines between formal buying patterns and non-sanctioned (i.e. bootleg) consumption. Bootlegging, illegal downloading, burning, borrowing, etc. (all practices that are central to black hip hop consumption) does not show up in the formal numbers, but you better believe it makes a difference in which artists have buzz, get popular, and are ultimately marketed to the masses.<br /><br />Second, as I said before, corporations need black listeners not only to buy albums, but to promote artists by determining what’s hot.</B><I>-That Black youth consume Black death doesn't negate the weight of the white consumption of Black death. Many of black youth live day to day with the reality of dying black people death via prisons or caskets. Those 800 thousand Black people in jail have family members.</I><B>Is there supposed to be a point here?</B><I>Neither Gordon's point, nor Bakari's takes the power of corporations or corporate marketing into consideration.Marketing isn't a trillion dollar industry because IT doesn't work…<br /><br />-Who could possibly resist Hip Hop marketing? Young people are impressionable, the marketing is persuasive, and they only way someone knows better is if they are taught better.</I><B>Of course I take marketing into account. Corporate machines obviously define the range of artists who gain exposure in the mainstream pop cultural landscape. However, I think of human beings as moral and practical agents who are responsible for their own choices. I’m just weird like that, I guess.<br /><br />This is my major problem with false consciousness claims—they’re paternalistic. Those who make such claims must posit children and adults as dupes in order to absolve them of personal responsibility.<br /><br />[What kid] can resist hip hop marketing? The millions upon millions of kids who do not like or listen to hip hop. How about the average hip hop fan: hip hop history is littered with examples of commercial albums that were pushed by corporate machines and ultimately flopped because the consumers decided what was hot to them was not what corporations told them was hot.</B> <br /><br /><I>If Corporate sponsored rap and the white consumption of Black death isn't what drives hip hop today, why wasn't the white consumption of Black death an issue prior to the Telecommunications Act when hip hop was local and independent? Black youth WERE CLEARLY the tastemakers then.<br /><br />…That you think that the argument is 1992 is irrelevant. The argument, for that matter isn't 1992, but is 1996, given the fact that that is the year that the Telecommunications Act was passed.</I><B>Are you kidding me? The hip hop commercial industry has never truly been “local and independent.” Arguing that the Telecom Act killed hip hop’s commercial independence is just bad history. You’ve crafted a fictional nostalgic hip hop history driven by your misguided notions of cultural purity. <br /><br />“The white consumption of black death” wasn’t an issue prior to 96? How old are you? Have you ever heard of the Reverend Calvin Butts? C Delores Tucker? These anti-rap activists were making these same arguments when I had a box fade. But don’t take my word for it. Google “controversial” + “NWA” + “suburbs” and see what comes up. <br /><br />The year is, in fact, relevant because the “white consumption of black death” nonsense has been the dominant black left academic take on hip hop since the early 90s, well before the Telecom Act. This is a prime example tunnel vision. You have it set in your mind that corporate control (and in particular, the Telecom Act) created this monster and you’re going to stick to this belief, despite the fact that it’s demonstrably false.</B><I>I can see the desire to remove white consumption of Black death from the equation. Its an uncomfortable thing to think about. Professor Rose addresses this when she says, "the public conversation about hip hop over the past ten years has generally avoided the issue of how the acceleration of white fan consumption dovetailed with the commercial rise of gangsta/pimp/go figures in the genre....Many critics need hip hop to be all black and only black in origin and end product so that full blame and be squarely placed on black people. Thinking about how white desires and projections onto black people...could generate a real examination of how racist ideas and histories influence our cultural landscape."</I><B>This is just unacceptable. Serious critical thinkers do not frame substantive disagreement as intellectual incuriosity. What you’re essentially saying here is that those who take issue with your flimsy premise and evidence are really seeking to avoid dealing with tough questions of race. You’ve clearly never read our blog.<br /><br /><br />I will pull no punches in thrashing this lousy argument, and I admit that I am being extremely dismissive and disrespectful, but please understand that I do it not out of malice but out of concern. It hits close to home. As a black progressive college student and hip hop head, I made many of the same bad arguments that you do here. The weight of the contradictions and falsehoods got to be too much for me. I made a choice: I would no longer allow my ideological attachments to cloud my aesthetic judgment and my ability to think.<br /><br />I admire your passion, but passion about hip hop and progressive ideological commitments do not have to come at the expense of critical thought.</B>gordon gartrellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07453017150507048961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-23191136907069307912009-05-01T13:51:00.000-04:002009-05-01T13:51:00.000-04:00Long time reader, first time poster!
You make a bu...Long time reader, first time poster!<br />You make a bunch of great points. I dissagree however with your comments about; roots, Talib, etc being on the "margins." Only if you define it by record sales. <br />Fact is most of the white dudes I know pride themselves on being up on "real" hip-hop (almost to a fault haha). <br />When I'm at a Pharaoh or Roots show, I never see the dudes from around my that ride blasting Wayne, Gucci Mane, etc.<br /><br />"at my shows, all I see is coffee shop chics and white dudes..." - Common<br /><br />-KezBig Kezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07833550522431157603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-2774828355688793222009-05-01T01:05:00.000-04:002009-05-01T01:05:00.000-04:00I definitely think this is fodder for a deeper, pr...I definitely think this is fodder for a deeper, prolonged discussion, but I do want to say a couple things:<br /><br />In general, I think it's misleading to continuously chalk this to the big bad media giants and the thrones of racist white consumers. White kids love Hov for the same reason black kids, asian kids, and latinos do: He's one of the most prolific MCs of our generation. He makes me feel comfortable for the same reason he makes Latinos, Asians, or middle-class blacks feel comfortable.<br /><br />Lil Wayne makes me feel comfortable because he has mastered the poetic art of alliteration. C'mon - "Safe sex is great sex, better wear a latex/'Cause you don't want that late text/That "I think I'm late," text". That's just artful. And I'm sorry - just as Jada says "there aren't enough black hip-hop consumers to explain a platinum artist," all 1,000,000 of Weezy's consumers aren't all white.<br /><br />I think folks like (BET president) Stephen Hill and Russell Simmons have a vested interest in making us believe that it's a white consumption thing - it removes all agency from THEIR actions that lead to negative images of black people. Just as Rose calls bullshit on the claim "well, there ARE bitches and hoes," so too should we call bullshit on Stephen Hill. I think it's a major cop out in the Hurt film when Simmons says "I pick my battles." They are both extremely powerful and influential in setting trends in this genre. To imply that whites, when not offered "black death" to consume, will just up and leave and consume a new genre, is condescending towards white people, and damn near bordering on racism. <br /><br />Do I take this personal because I am a white man that has listened to hip-hop all his life? Sure. But I also think that white consumption and the corporatization of hip-hop (which I DO think Kitwana adresses) is often misrepresented.<br /><br />But, we should continue this over email or something because I don't want to take over your comments section!Jeremy R. Levinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15416986198194612392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-27106654596195454952009-05-01T00:19:00.000-04:002009-05-01T00:19:00.000-04:00Hi Jeremy,
Thank you for sharing and for your com...Hi Jeremy,<br /><br />Thank you for sharing and for your comment.<br /><br />Lets see here.Mmmmmmm.<br /><br /><br />Neither Gordon's point, nor Bakari's takes the power of corporations or corporate marketing into consideration.<br />Marketing isn't a trillion dollar industry because IT doesn't work. <br /><br />THE POWER IN HIP HIP EQUATION<br />Corporations (Heaviest Weight)<br />White youth (High Weight)<br />Black youth(Lightest Weight)<br /><br /><br />How can we explain Kanye's massive commercial success, or the explosion of hipster rap? <br />=====<br />An exception to the rule, does not negate the rule, it merely means that there is an exception. It still stands that the dominant narrative in Rap music today is Gangsta/Pimp/Ho. Peep your local urban radio play list. <br /><br />Black youth tastes are equally culpable, and I would argue equally SUSCEPTIBLE to racist exploitation. Sometimes they are just buying in to the stereotypes too! It's a pretty big problem that can't be laid on the shoulders of "white consumption of black death" alone.<br />=======<br />Yeah. Im going to have to go ahead and put it on the white consumption of Black death.<br /> <br />People by buy what makes them feel comfortable. <br /><br />I buy yellow tulips, German beer, fancy dresses and pedicures, because they make me feel comfortable. I also listen to Doom and Mobb Deep and Tribe because they make me fee comfortable. How and Why does Lil Wayne/50/Jay make white teens feel comfortable? <br /><br />Why do Lil Wayne's/50/Jay's Pimp/Ho/Gangsta themes make anybody feel good?<br /><br />I can see the desire to remove white consumption of Black death from the equation. Its an uncomfortable thing to think about. Professor Rose addresses this when she says, "the public conversation about hip hop over the past ten years has generally avoided the issue of how the acceleration of white fan consumption dovetailed with the commercial rise of gangsta/pimp/go figures in the genre....Many critics need hip hop to be all black and only black in origin and end product so that full blame and be squarely placed on black people. Thinking about how white desires and projections onto black people...could generate a real examination of how racist ideas and histories influence our cultural landscape."<br /><br />In some ways I don't think you all will believe the reality of the Black and White consumption of Black death until you hear it from the mouths of young people. But I see that as being my job and I relish the opportunity to do it.<br /><br />And I close with a quote from Justin D. Ross's article, "Offended, The Rap is on Me."<br />Ross is a white man who ask's why do white people buy hip hop. He is mentioned in Rose's book as well.<br /><br />"In the current debate over whether hip-hop.... I've heard quite a bit from black activists... But I haven't heard a peep from the white fans who essentially underwrite the industry by purchasing more than 70 percent of the rap music in this country, according to Mediamark Research Inc. I don't presume to tell any artist, studio executive or record label what to record or not record. But I will presume to ask young white customers: Why are we buying this stuff? "<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702048.html<br /><br />~M.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-84344621494709143942009-04-30T22:49:00.000-04:002009-04-30T22:49:00.000-04:00Sees a well thought out article that he understand...Sees a well thought out article that he understands and respects, but disagrees with vehemently. <br /><br />Witness’s two very good bloggers (G.G /M.Dot) pontentialy about to mentally spar.<br /><br />Keeps Thoughts to himself.<br /><br /> Grabs some popcorn.<br /><br />(Goes back to actually working at the j.o.b)Damehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03982320011550967426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14243811.post-81874896024311001602009-04-30T21:42:00.000-04:002009-04-30T21:42:00.000-04:00@GG
That you think that the argument is 1992 is ir...@GG<br />That you think that the argument is 1992 is irrelevant. The argument, for that matter isn't 1992, but is 1996, given the fact that that is the year that the Telecommunications Act was passed.<br /><br />I said nothing abut a gangsta rap/conscious dichotomy. Those are your words. I mentioned the Gangsta/Pimp/Ho Trinity, which is dominant narrative in corporate hip hop in 2009.<br /><br />You make one lined comments, but you do not, and apparently, cannot refute my arguement on my terms.<br /><br />What is, in fact, your argument, and what is it based on?<br /><br /><br />It's easy to spin this is terms of white capitalist/racist exploitation, but black youth tastes drive "the consumption of black death."<br />=========<br />Rap no longer needs black listeners in the same way that American Capitalism no longer needs Detroit.<br />-In 2006 whites made up 60.1% of consumers of rap, blacks made up 25%. Hip Hop Wars. pg.88 MediaMark, http://www.mediamark.com/)<br />-That Black youth consume Black death doesn't negate the weight of the white consumption of Black death. Many of black youth live day to day with the reality of dying black people death via prisons or caskets. Those 800 thousand Black people in jail have family members.<br />-Who could possibly resist Hip Hop marketing? Young people are impressionable, the marketing is persuasive, and they only way someone knows better is if they are taught better.<br /><br /><br />The masses of white rap fans still look to black youth's notions of cool to decide what music is acceptable to listen to. That is true for all popular rap, but is especially so for "gangsta" shit.<br />=======<br /><br />Black kids "make it cool", White kids "make it profitable", and the rappers give out turkeys on Thanksgiving. Corporate shareholders are pleased.<br /><br /><br />Lastly.<br /><br /><br />If Corporate sponsored rap and the white consumption of Black death isn't what drives hip hop today, why wasn't the white consumption of Black death an issue prior to the Telecommunications Act when hip hop was local and independent? Black youth WERE CLEARLY the tastemakers then.<br /><br />~M.Model Minorityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18364810029145290617noreply@blogger.com