Even Meylssa Ford Drives a Honda Accord
-Game "You Wont Get Far"
We always hear about rappers f*cking video vixens and women in general. We see video vixens in rap videos and on the cover of King, Smooth and Black Men. Little black and brown girls want to grow up to be video vixens.
But we never hear from the vixens themselves.
At least not until Karrine Stephans wrote her book.
The Madonna Whore Syndrome
To a certain extent, the message being sent is that is theat the vixens are like children, they should be seen and not heard. Which brings me to Carmens book.
A couple of weeks ago I reading Eskay's post where he called Carmen a slore (slut + whore) and a spooge receptacle, I began to wonder:
a. If Carmen is a "slore" then what does that make Jay, Nas and AI?
b. If they are not worthy of any fancy derogative names then the inference is that n*ggas can f*ck but women can't. However, if men are f*cking, and presumably hetero, then are are f*cking women. Talk about circular reasoning.
c. A major component of rap music is about getting at and snatching someone elses girl.
d. And that it is worth noting that having sex with Nas, Jay Z and AI constitutes a new version of promiscuity that is worthy of a new adjective.
e. What would a rap video be without the The Vixens? f. That it is interesting that same kind of venom isn't reserved for n*ggas that sell crack and THEN rap about it.
Get off my D*ck and tell ya B*tch to Come Here
-Eazy E.
a. Its clear that it is acceptable for black and brown women to parade around in videos, a$$ cheeks glisten', looking available, sexy and expendable.
b. It is acceptable for Nelly to run tip drills.
c. But. Let a sista mash with a couple of these cats, then she is a slore. Let her write a book about it, then she is a slore who wants to make money off her "sloredom".
Yo honey-dips, summertime, fine Jheri drippin
See you on Pickens with a bunch of chickens how you're clickin
I catch shootin strong notes as we got close
She rocked rope, honey throat smellin like Impulse
Your whole shell baby's wicked like Nimrod
Caught me like a fresh-water scrod, or may I not be God
Ice Cream- Ghost Face
d. Which brings me to pimps. Its ironic that this a is a culture that values pimps, men who make money off of women who sell sex. But reserves the right to be derisive towards women who makes HER OWN money of her sexual exploits.
e. This is Especially deep in light of the fact that a substantial component of hip hop is men talking ABOUT THEIR sexual exploits.
Carmen is pretty. She grown. She can mash with whom ever she wants. While it reasonable to expect that that people "will talk". It is important to note when the name calling starts, and whether the men are criticized along the same lines as the women.
Why does it constitute sloredom that she mashed with the above mentioned?
Sex and the Big Picture
Sex has allays been a currency in Western culture and it arguably allays will be. That this notion arises in hip hop gives us an opportunity to talk about it within the context of a frame work that we are familiar with: Hip Hop.
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That one has been on my mind for a couple of weeks.
Watchall' think?
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28 comments:
d-d-d-d-damn....goin up against the BEAST nah right! watch yo back.
seriously, nice piece m dot. a lot to think about. i'm not sure where i stand. all i know is too much bravado rap and too much t-n-a on the radio/mtv is not good
oooh. good bit.
I've always dubbed myself a complex feminist, though i try to live by “personal as political”, i never can seem to fully commit. On one hand denouncing the treatment of Black women in misogynistic rhymes but on the other hand chanting with lil jon and the eastside boys "from the window, to the wall. ta da sweat drop down my balls"...now that aint right. huh?
Yeah, it's hard cause I hear the interviews that Carmen is doing now and I can't stand to hear her stupidity. Yet, I can recite the words to the Ether, nas vs jay rhymes. and to be honest, i think i'm hard on her just on the strength of the gp "how could she go off on jay?"
idunno, cause i even was critical of bell hooks, for ultimately falling short of personal responsibility and blaming "the industry" for snoop's lyrics, http://race.eserver.org/misogyny.html
gotta throw the deuce real quick. the wire's on. i'll think on this tonight and hit u back tomorrow
goin up against the BEAST nah right! watch yo back.
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First of all. Me and Eskay Cool.
I e-mailed him and gave 'em a heads up. You know Imma libra and gotta have my jawns balanced or I feel light headed!
seriously, nice piece m dot. a lot to think about. i'm not sure where i stand. all i know is too much bravado rap and too much t-n-a on the radio/mtv is not good
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Thank you.
I would like to know what you think. Still though.
Sh*t. Something bubblin in that brain.
On one hand denouncing the treatment of Black women in misogynistic rhymes but on the other hand chanting with lil jon and the eastside boys "from the window, to the wall. ta da sweat drop down my balls"...now that aint right. huh?
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Humans are hypocrits, period point blank.
I did not start listening to Miles Until 4 years ago because I read Pearl Cleage's Mad at Miles and learned that he usta beat the tofu outta Cicley Tyson AND. And i mean AND was UNAPOLOGETIC ABOUT IT to the police.
That was trill to me.
But I figgered, with all this KAKA in Hip hop that I throw my hands up to, sh*t, I can listen to Miles.
Specially that Blue and Green Gurrrl.
Hit me tomorrow.
I think it might be poppin in the comment section a lil bit.
"I did not start listening to Miles Until 4 years ago because I read Pearl Cleage's Mad at Miles and learned that he usta beat the tofu outta Cicley Tyson AND. And i mean AND was UNAPOLOGETIC ABOUT IT to the police.
That was trill to me"
Ooohhh, does that essay do that to EVERYone that reads it. Cleage is dope.
See, the problem that I have with Miles is the same I have with the vixens. for miles i still have a problem with separating the woman beater from the musical genius. I guess since I wasn’t as attached to his music as I am to hiphop, it sorta made the decision easy for me. But in relation to Miles, I’m sorta in the middle trying to separate the video vixen from “slore”
Personal responsibility has got the moral part of me, knowing that “I know they mamas taught them better than to be dancing half naked in these videos” but social responsibility’s got me saying “yeah, well they mama might’ve not been able to teach her no better cause she ain’t had no one to teach her, and the community that she grew up in all effed up, so she just tryin to find a way out” Is becoming a video vixen the female version of rappin?
Is becoming a video vixen the female version of rappin?
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Well.
That is a CERTAINLY is a good question.
If that is the case, where does that leave Black Families? And Black Pop Culture.
My issue isn't about whether their mommas have taught them better than that.
My issue is that, as critical thinkers about about Pop Culture and Black people, why is IT TOLERABLE TO CRITICIZE the Vixens with such Venom but N*GGAS CAN SELL CRACK, K*LL FOOLS, RAP ABOUT IT, GET SHOT, GET PAID FROM IT, yet they are not critcized the same.
Miles. Yeah. Falling in love w/ his music forces one to reconcile his Cicley beating ways and the beauty of his music.
Madonna and to a certain extent Lil Kim have been the only two women that have been allowed to use their sexuality as a major element of their selling points.
The inference is that Men and Sell Sex with women, but women cant profit of sex with men.
To see gangsta rap as a reflection of dominant values in our culture rather than as an aberrant "pathological" standpoint does not mean that a rigorous feminist critique of the sexist and misogyny expressed in this music is not needed. Without a doubt black males, young and old, must be held politically accountable for their sexism. Yet this critique must always be contextualized or we risk making it appear that the behaviors this thinking supports and condones,--rape, male violence against women, etc.-- is a black male thing. And this is what is happening. Young black males are forced to take the "heat" for encouraging, via their music, the hatred of and violence against women that is a central core of patriarchy. - bell hooks
Damn son-I really couldn't have said it better myself and why try when ms. hooks states it so eloquently. I dont really think hooks is neglecting personal responsibility and blaming the industry for gangsta/pimp rap; instead she is sees it as systemic result/product that originated from white supremacist capitalist patriarchy beliefs and ideals that have existed since the classical era of human existence.
But to look at this argument from the theory advanced by bell hooks' the reaction to Superhead and Carmen obviousy stem from a fear of loss of masculine power and authority that the black male feels that he possess over the black woman (but not over the white male). hooks explores these themes in her excellent book We Real Cool; since slavery the black male's only sense of power comes from the home (i.e. he takes shit from his white boss all day and then takes it out on his woman). Carmen and Superhead are breaking out of their subservient positions and challenging one of the embodients of black masculinty in this culture-rappers. They have to be punished for this defiance thus the name calling, the clowning of Nas for not having control over his woman; the saddest part to me is that neither the rappers or the video vixens have any real power in the grand scheme of things. (I would also extend that to white women Madonna's videos and perfomances are still banned - this whole cruifix thing and she still answers to the record company.
And speaking of cats selling crack, rhyming about it and not being criticized, but praised for it; this Clipse love is getting out of hand. IMHO the album isn't even that hot the first one was better and are they really bringing anything new to crack rap. R u shitting me? But they recieve critcal praise across the board while Carmen gets trashed.
The big problem is not that Carmen felt it necessary to write a book, but knew it would generate controversy and more imporantly sell. What does that say about US society as a whole?
To see gangsta rap as a reflection of dominant values in our culture rather than as an aberrant "pathological" standpoint does not mean that a rigorous feminist critique of the sexist and misogyny expressed in this music is not needed.
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Of course.
Young black males are forced to take the "heat" for encouraging, via their music, the hatred of and violence against women that is a central core of patriarchy. - bell hooks
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You of all people know that I am on hooksian theory of view black pop culture within the frame work of pop culture at large.
I am NOT a proponet of Black men BEING anyone's scape goat.
Thats Ishamel Reed 101 right there Ock!
that the black male feels that he possess over the black woman (but not over the white male).
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A f*cking Ha.
The elephant, giraffe and the got d@mn crackhead in the room.
the saddest part to me is that neither the rappers or the video vixens have any real power in the grand scheme of things
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Of course.
However, there actions are highly symbolic and reflect the power dynamics that take place in our homes, and work places.
And speaking of cats selling crack, rhyming about it and not being criticized, but praised for it; this Clipse love is getting out of hand.
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I knew you were gonna bring that to me and thats HOT.
The represent that love/hate relationship that I have with myself, with black people and with pop culture.
The love and expertise they have for the english language cannot be denied.
The puns, metaphors, and ironic twists remind me of why I liked Mobb Deep in the first place.
The grimeyness and passion is so seductive, because here you have Black men, GOING hard on some take no prisoners type ish which is refreshing in the face of daily obstacles that we WE ALL FACE on a daily basis.
Them pharrel beats don't hurt. Either.
The big problem is not that Carmen felt it necessary to write a book, but knew it would generate controversy and more imporantly sell. What does that say about US society as a whole?
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It says that US society belives that sex sells.
The love and expertise they have for the english language cannot be denied.
The puns, metaphors, and ironic twists remind me of why I liked Mobb Deep in the first place.
Hahahaha- an example of The Clipse's love and experrtise of the English language...calling crack Diet Coke - holla for the lyrical expertise. Mobb Deep-c'mon that's sacreligious. See that's why we're so messed up because black women keep accepting substandard rap.
I don't have an issue with doing whatever one wants to do. I'm all for personal freedoms but I think why ppl got offended (I'm offering one explanation, may not be plausible enough but still..) was the timing of it all. 5 years have passed since the official inception of the beef b/w Jay & Nas on wax and now she comes out of the woodwork with a book aimed directly at those two.
Maybe if this book or a tirade had come out right after all the songs were aired which she did by the way @ a press conference I wouldn't be offended.
Not to mention, she keeps using the excuse of having a daughter as a shield for her 'maturity' as I listened to on her appearance on Wendy Williams's show. I find this book childish and immature in its reasoning as far as why she's putting it out...but that's just my personal standard. I don't wanna know her tales of romp and pleasure with these dudes which prolly puts me in the minority when it all boils down to it.
I see the bigger picture here though I'd say society has LONG had a double standard b/w men and women, it's sad but that's how the dice has rolled for a minute.
Carmen Bryant has every right to make money off her personal life as does rapper A with his/hers. The issue here though are the players involved but then again no one can say, "well you can't tell your story 'cos I'm in it" but it seems rather interesting the tales didn't come out until when the beef spilled over. She could've easily put out a tell-all book even before all that, I don't think anyone would've been mad really.
Video vixens imo are no diff from the modern day radio-rapper. Both have a desire for a get-rich-quick scheme that's tried and well tired. Most video vixens if you haven't noticed always state their desires in pursuing acting careers, whilst their counterparts in film school burn midnight oils in reciting lines and memorizing stanzas off Hamlet. I honestly chuckle when I read a Vida Guerra for instance says, "she's pursuing acting." Like the nerve really...
Carmen Bryant has every right to make money off her personal life as does rapper A with his/hers. The issue here though are the players involved but then again no one can say, "well you can't tell your story 'cos I'm in it" but it seems rather interesting the tales didn't come out until when the beef spilled over.
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Its Capitalism n*gga.
Look @ all the fourth quarter Albums coming out for instance.
Clipse. Ghost. Jay. Ciara. Nas.
Book publishing AND music the music industry are businesses.
I wouldn't be surprised if Carmen always wanted to write the book but was unsure.
Whereas Nas's marriage, his link up w/ Jay Z AND the success of the Video Vixen book put her over the top.
but it seems rather interesting the tales didn't come out until when the beef spilled over.
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A market was created for her story AFTER THE BEEF OCK.
Think about it. It was just an interesting tale before the super beef.
But after the beef, then the reunion...it was like D*amn. Capitalism makes strange bedfellows.
Both have a desire for a get-rich-quick scheme that's tried and well tired.
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Thats negro's. Erry body want that loud quick money.
Give me that long quiet anyday!
Most video vixens if you haven't noticed always state their desires in pursuing acting careers, whilst their counterparts in film school burn midnight oils in reciting lines and memorizing stanzas off Hamlet
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Hey. My theory is leverage what you got to get what you want.
Most of your life is decided by who's vagina you pop out of and what kindergardten you go to.
Life is Unfair. Play hard.
I honestly chuckle when I read a Vida Guerra for instance says, "she's pursuing acting." Like the nerve really...
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Its mad no talents in Hollywood.
Why she flip a carmen Electra?
Some good convo going on here.
Words that stand out to me; Hypocracy, Capitalism, Leverage......
because black women keep accepting substandard rap.
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Right.
Because "I" accept things that are substandard.
N*gga please.
Because "I" accept things that are substandard
Substandard = all hyphy music. I rest my case your honor
I think that the book would've been better if it came out during the beef; then Nas/Jay-Z would ammo for some more rouds. Fuck the reuninon.
Substandard = all hyphy music. I rest my case your honor
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Your such a F*cking f*ck wad.
That must be the Yonkers in you:)
I think that the book would've been better if it came out during the beef; then Nas/Jay-Z would ammo for some more rouds. Fuck the reuninon.
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Art and Business like Oil and Milk.
Not the best mix.
I am sure that Carmen has taken into consideration your desires. lol.
Carmen is cashing in on her notoriety. She is not the first, won't be the last. Sounds like anybody we know??? How about O.J.?!!
It's about staying in your lane.
A black woman wants to write about her sexual exploits? It's OK.
A black man wants to write about killing a WHITE woman? FALL BACK!!!!!!!!!!
While our community may be touchy about the Carmen book, the publishers know, like Superhead, this book will sell to the "Zane" consumers. That's the bottom line.
Good to catch up with you again!!!
Someone mentioned Zane fans..lol
Basically...them ppl's are who the book is targeting.
A black woman wants to write about her sexual exploits? It's OK.
A black man wants to write about killing a WHITE woman? FALL BACK!!!!!!!!!!
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Yeah! Hella LOL'S.
Yeah. The Zane, Wendy Williams crowd is substantial!
Good to catch up with you again too:)
I listened to yet another interview with her on Shade45...as always they asked her the same ol' questions. What I did find interesting however is how she stated that there was a discussion between her I presume Nas and Jay over the phone about the alleged 'beef on wax' how it was going to go or whatever, what lines not to cross and such..I dunno..her story never stays the same.
..and not to mention she keeps hinting that every song those two have done is about her, I can see 'is that your chick' being about her but then she goes on to say 'excuse me miss' is about her, when clearly that song was about Bey...LOL. You gotta admire her tenacity.
You gotta admire her tenacity.
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If you ain't got that in this industry,
you get ate alive and they swallow ya bones!
I hear what you're saying and your overall issue of the double standard is valid. I don't think there is anything wrong with them smashing whomever they wish. But in these situations, you're missing a key component. Karrine and Carmen came out talking about real-life men in real situations. When rappers brag on record about hitting this chick, slaying that chick, etc., they are mostly talking about anonymous women. They're not naming names, giving in-depth details on relationships with specific married women or rapping things in records like "I'm back, it's 50, what/I had Vivica Fox on her knees swallowing nut." If any rapper wrote a book and named all the models, actresses, singers and video chicks they slayed and talked about when, where, positions, etc. they would rightly be called foul and women would be outraged....including you....even though they have the same right to do it as Carmen.
I think the backlash you're seeing is that when you're in an intimate relationship with someone, there is an expectation of privacy, and people think she's foul for breaking that with all these people. If Nas put Carmen's sex videos on the 'Net it would be foul because she expected them to be private, just like all the conversations, sexual encounters, etc. these rappers had with her IN CONFIDENCE. Similarly, Karrine actually tried to stop the re-release of her porn flicks...AFTER putting everyone else's business out there. Now that's gall. The real issue for me is the violation of privacy.
Ohhh.
I got anon post.
J shot first. He named names, a la Karinne, a few years ago on track that, while the name escapes me, a reader will probably post later.
(Jase/Gotty, aintchall mention that to me last week????)
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They're not naming names, giving in-depth details on relationships with specific married women or rapping things in records like "I'm back, it's 50, what/I had Vivica Fox on her knees swallowing nut."
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The value of information lies in the fact that others don't have it.
That being said, of course its different for Karinne to name names. The value of her stories is NOT that she was f*ckin', but that she was f*cking this that and the third who all happened to be celebrities.
That Karinne named names MEN DON'T in their rhymes, does not negate the fact that women in pop culture in in Black culture are "slorized" when they try and make they own money off they mash.
Nas and Carm & Naming Names
a. Erry body knew that Carm was his BM.
b. Jay put Carm on BLAST ON HIS SONG.
c. CARM responds w/ a book.
d. Names were named!
e. They all playing the game and have the revenue streams to prove it.
Power and Sex
When AI, NAS and Jay mashes w/ women who have considerably less power then they do, don't they avail themselves of the possibility that these women will use it as leverage for their own careers?
a. Speaks to the odium, "Be careful who you f*ck".
AFTER putting everyone else's business out there.
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When two people mash, it becomes the busines of both parties.
Neither owns the Rights to publicize the mash.
They have co-mash publicity rights.
they would rightly be called foul and women would be outraged....including you.
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Na. You got me f*cked up.
I would see it as a substantial step towards another point in the evolution of the game.
I tend to only get outraged when I don't feel like I have any resolve.
If they did that, then it could compel OTHER WOMEN TO PUT THEM ON MASH AND erry body business would be out on the stret and the GLAMOROUS life portrayed in music videos would come one step closer to being portrayed as the marketing tool that it is AND NOT A lifestyle aspiration.
That Karinne named names MEN DON'T in their rhymes, does not negate the fact that women in pop culture in in Black culture are "slorized" when they try and make they own money off they mash.
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no one is saying women can't make money off of portraying themselves as slores - or for being actual slags (slut bags). lil' kim, foxy brown, trina, jackie o, every video chick, most r&b singers.....they all are caking off of looking, talking, and behaving publicly, like porn stars 24/7...and are beloved...or at least lusted after and worshipped. women have long since been "sexually liberated" and able to act as sexually dumb and irresponsible as men. that's not the issue.
however, you're right. jay said carmen's name. cool. she should go for his head. but even with all the ammo she gave nas, to the point where everyone would have understood if he blasted her on record, he kept his mouth shut about all her indiscretions. and AI, as far as i know, never said a word either.
she's well within her rights to make money. and in this capitalist country, everything goes, but it doesn't make it right for men or women. all these sex tapes of chicks floating around, the dudes involved were straight up wrong...even if they had equal rights to publicize the mash. some women might not mind (pam anderson, paris hilton) but some clearly do (eve). we all understand carmen's hustle, but don't try to make her out to be some victim of sexual politics and double standards who has been "slorized." yes, she's being criticized for having sex, but mostly for being a foul twat rag.
everything goes, but it doesn't make it right for men or women.
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Hence why we are having this conversations.
but don't try to make her out to be some victim of sexual politics and double standards who has been "slorized." yes, she's being criticized for having sex, but mostly for being a foul twat rag.
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Trust.
Not once did I call her a victim.
Carm, Karrine, Melyssa, and the countless, "namless" others Choose it.
BUT I WILL point out the double standard.
N*ggas be more mad at a woman that f*cked some rappers than at some dudes that Rap about and SELL HELLA CRACK. Ain't that some sh*t.
However, WE, was lovers of the culture, have the duty and responsbility to analyze the power dynamics, relationships, sexual realtions within our beautiful world of hip hop.
So you are saying that "she's well within her rights to make money", yet you are calling her a "foul twat rag."
I find that difficult to reconcile.
~HB
HB,
niggas that rap about sellin' crack ain't really no dealers, but my disdain and vitriol runs high for them as well as any women who advocates sleeping with men to gain prestige and power. Both types of people are bitchmade and neither will help disenfranchised folks get to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
one thing I will say about a whore as opposed to a fake drug pusher... the whore has the children and skid marked pussy to so-sign her travails, the fake drug dealer never has a subsequent line of methadone addled fiends at his concert or instore record signing.
whore = more trill
You know I am very open when it comes to women enjoying their sexuality. That said, this chick has a child. She cannot act as carefree as someone without children. Her daughter is a preteen, and looks at her mom as a role model so Carmen needs to step up to the plate.
HB,
niggas that rap about sellin' crack ain't really no dealers,
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Er No.
Change the scope, change the arguement.
Not on my watch ock.
What these rappers talk about affects the young bucks as much as Carms & Karinnes books.
but my disdain and vitriol runs high for them as well as any women who advocates sleeping with men to gain prestige and power.
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What are you talking about.
Your statement reflects my motivation for writing the article in the first place.
Quote unquote.
THE CURRENT STATE OF POPULAR HIP HOP REFLECTS THE PRINCIPAL THAT IT IS FINE FOR MEN TO SELL THE IDEA OF HAVING SEX WITH WOMEN, THAT THEY CAN SIMULATE HAVING SEX WITH GREASED UP BOOTY CLAPPIN WOMEN IN THEIR VIDEOS, BUT IF A WOMAN COMES OUT AND TALKS ABOUT HAVING HAD SEX WITH THEM THEY ARE SLORES?????
AND WHY ISN'T THE SAME LEVEL OF CRITICISM LOBBIED AT THE MEN WHO HAD SEX WITH THE WOMEN AND FOR FOR N*GGAS THAT SELL CRACK?
I used caps to get my point across D.
one thing I will say about a whore as opposed to a fake drug pusher...
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I said nothing aboutu fake d-boys.
the whore has the children and skid marked pussy to so-sign her travails, the fake drug dealer never has a subsequent line of methadone addled fiends at his concert or instore record signing.
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That you mentioned the "skid marked pussy to so-sign her travails" and not the SAME FOR THE MEN WHO F*CKED WITH them in the first place is my exact motivation for writing this piece.
N*ggas can sell crack, beat women, shoot ni*ggas and rap about it.
Let a woman come out talking aboutu some people that sh f*ck and she is a slore and represents the end of black people as we know it.
whore = more trill
Hi BIB.
I told I was in DC a coupla weeks ago.
its mad pretty down there:)
The people are major nice too.
hat said, this chick has a child. She cannot act as carefree as someone without children. Her daughter is a preteen, and looks at her mom as a role model so Carmen needs to step up to the plate.
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She is being a role model.
She makin' money.
You know. Hip Hops creed.
"Get Money".
Everyone knows what happened.
Its been rapped about.
Its not like the girl DON'T know who here daddy is, who her momma is, who Jay Z is.
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