Sunday, April 06, 2008

F-ck Them Critics Jay, We Still Believe

TwitThis

When I saw the reaction at Parlour stating that Jay
Electronica
needed an intervention after his show in
NYC last week
I was like "What kinda facts are those?"
According to that logic, when Jay Electronica f*cks
up a show, he needs an Erykah intervention. So, what

if his show was brilliant? Should they then get married?

How about we let the man hone his craft?

After I read that post I reminded Rafi of OH Word of the Living

with Baduizm post (by Sasha) that made my @ss itch.

Here is how the conversation went down.
me: dude. Jay and E.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Rafi: lol
i'm on my way out the door
3:11 PM me: k.
Rafi: the jay electronica saga is funny
me: hahaha
I KNOOOOW.
I always think about the post you did on
Baduizm...'bout to tie it back to the Vixens
Rafi: unless he literally appeared at the gates
to Jerusalem and welcomed us all to the
promised land
me: hahaha
Rafi: unless he did that how would he have
lived up to the hype?
me: I know.

======

======

A couple of weeks ago, Madlib asked Kevin Nottingham to remove
the sample set posted on his blog. Ivan @ HHIR speaks on the
issue saying,
Our ol' pal Kevin Nottingham of This Is Hip Hop hit me up today regarding a message he received by none other than Madlib. The message was written in response to Kevin's recent release of his (totally awesome) 'Madvillain - Madvillainy' sample set. Simply put: Madlib wanted the set to be taken down from Kev's site, download link and all. Kevin politely obliged.

Now here's the question and matter at hand (which Kevin asked his readers as well): Is the act of compiling samples used on albums harmful to Hip-Hop? Our (Kev and I) reasoning and motivation is, quite simply, that we're just trying to learn about the artform (of sampling in particular) and spread it forth for everyone who shares our interests in this great music, culture and lifestyle we call Hip-Hop. Personally, I get a rush seeking out samples from some of my favorite emcees. But Madlib's response to this was the following: "Pages like this on the internet are no help at all to people like Doom, Madlib, and those that work with them."

Essentially, Kevin and I are simply collecting the information and music, and compiling them into one enveloped and enjoyable package for y'all to dig in to and have fun with.
Here is the thing. While Ivan and crew has good intentions,
Madlib
does have point. Dooms, Libs and Count Bass D's
music are sample intense.
Label awareness of their usage
of said samples could severely impact their ability
make
music without having to pay for egregious sample clearances.

This is an issue that has been present in Hip Hop since
the Biz
Markie affair. I would like to make another distinction
for Ivan. There is a difference between
between downloading
searching out, finding and downloading a couple of original
songs that serve as the source material for our favorite
hip hip songs. It is something completely different to
have site to go to where the entire sample set.

A substantial barrier has been removed.


The entire DNA of the album has been revealed and them
in the crates cats hate that sh-t.

While the action of posting was done out of
reverence,
artists are sensitive people who don't like
folks knowing
what goes into the albums secret sauce.

Ahhhhh, the hairy issues of sample clearances.

Madlib may argue that posting the sample sets increases the
likelihood of sample related lawsuits. My question is doesn't the
risk of lawsuit come with the territory? That that is something
risk that he takes just by putting out the music?

Feel like I am back in Copyright.

=====

=====

Who is in the right here? Madlib? Ivan?

Why these cats hella pressed with Jay? Can
he live? Show me a loudmouth critic and I will show
you a bitter artist.

=====
=====

11 comments:

neo said...

With Jay Electronica, overblown hype leads to overblown expectations. What you're seeing with the recent criticism he got (I watched the videos and the good parts were pretty good imo) is ppl who know about him and don't really care for him overreacting 'cos this is an opportunity to say, "he ain't all that to begin with" and then you have his fans rallying to defend him as well.

I spoke on that issue with Ivan himself. His thing was the fact that 'lib didn't come forthwith to explain the reason he wanted those sets taken down. He just sent a superficial message that didn't really make sense when you break it down honestly. We pretty much had to figure out maybe that was the reason (the lawsuits) he wanted it really taken down.

Matthew said...

Yo deeply seated in hip hop ethics is the importance of the idea that my shit is hotter than yours. Before the internet was major, right around 96-2000 a gang of records came out that had original tracks, and listed next to the song was, for example, used by Pete Rock on T.R.O.Y. On moment of Truth, Premo addressed the phenomenon when he said, y'all are violating straight up and down. He took the position that making samples available to the general public made it harder for artists to control the product they made. Preem used cut a record up so well that nobody knew what samples he was using until these sample records came out. Once that happened, labels had more control over his product than he did because of sample clearances.

Its about more than lawsuits. One of the things you got to love about hip hop is the reality that it was black and brown kids making profound use of what they had. They took 8 bars of a record and turned it into twenty minutes. When cats make samples available like that, they compromise the ability of artists to control they own product. Additionally, they compromise they very creative work ethic that is responsible for the birth of hip hop.

Heavy D! said...

My question is doesn't the
risk of lawsuit come with the territory? That that is something
risk that he takes just by putting out the music?
======================================

The short answer is "Yes." Artists sample the music; they don't write it, and aside from when they chop it up, they really have no control over other people's work. It amounts to using someone else's work to make your job easier. That's all well and good, but when it's done without permission and the rapper makes money off of it, that rapper shouldn't get mad if he gets caught, because that's the risk you take when you sample without permission.

Wow, I feel like I'm monopolizing this board...

Model Minority said...

With Jay Electronica, overblown hype leads to overblown expectations
=======

Whatev. You hatin. Ock.


W/ Ivan. Ummm. If you are posting up somebodies shit, there is a likilhood that you can hear from a.) the label b.) the artist c.) the RIAA.

Thats just the truth.

Why would Ivan think that Lib should have reached out directly?

Barring the fact that they "cool like that" I don't see the rationale.

Model Minority said...

Once that happened, labels had more control over his product than he did because of sample clearances.
======

Awwww. Point of Production/ Labor Bear. You are remarkable in your ability bring MARX into fucking anything. LOL's.

Model Minority said...

That's all well and good, but when it's done without permission and the rapper makes money off of it, that rapper shouldn't get mad if he gets caught,
=======

One of the more progressive doctrines in Copyright law is the notion of fair use.

I have always relished the challenge of being able to argue that sampling falls under fair use, thus is a legally permissible use of the music.

The notion being that the producers are taking someone elses work, and making it into a whole new work, something that is substantially different, is in furtherance of the goals of CR law. To an artists right to exploit their work, and also to leave enough source material available so that others may innovate. (Art LAW fucking rocks, can't believe I remember this ish).

The US courts and the Law don't agree with me. Yet, I still think it is a valid, yet hip hop friendly arguement.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

I love Madlib

SoSerious said...

If somebody HHIR found all the samples, how long would it take the RIAA to figure out what samples were used?

Illaim said...

I don’t know……

I still haven’t listened to Jay Electrona…

I mean, I just gathered the muster to listen to “Tanya Morgan” (And was pleasantly surprised their like a Little Brother with nobody as good a Phonte but nobody as wack as Big Pooh) a few weeks ago, something about my grimy beginnings cause my bloodstream to initially labeled as “Hipster” rap …

-------------------------

“Here is the thing. While Ivan and crew has good intentions,
Madlib does have point. Dooms, Libs and Count Bass D's
music are sample intense. Label awareness of their usage
of said samples could severely impact their ability make
music without having to pay for egregious sample clearances.”
----------------------------

Thank you explaining that cuz for a min I was lost on to why the musical genius know as Madlib would be slightly aggie about that post..
(side note* “Good Morning Sunshine” is on my trapped on a island list)

---------

“The entire DNA of the album has been revealed and them
in the crates cats hate that sh-t.

While the action of posting was done out of reverence,
artists are sensitive people who don't like folks knowing
what goes into the albums secret sauce.”


----------

Hmmmmmm

I don’t know if I can rock with them on that, your art is public record and deserves to and we be analyzed and broke down..

Sh*t even the producers of Jeezy’s “Lets Get It, Thug Motivation” where holding workshops on they ish

He himself even divulges parts of the recipe himself on tracks like “Return of the Loop Digga” and “Jazz Cats”


I just think its cool that dude out of respect complied with Madlib’s request, just like I appreciate that he took the time to create the post.

M.Dot. said...

(And was pleasantly surprised their like a Little Brother with nobody as good a Phonte but nobody as wack as Big Pooh
=====
So wrong.
TM go hard. Ask ?uesto.

I don’t know if I can rock with them on that, your art is public record and deserves to and we be analyzed and broke down..
=======
Fuck outta here.
Primo..Pete, Doom,....don't like that shit...its Antithetical (did I just use antithetical in a sentence?) to Boom Bap.

DITC..is ditc for a reason, nah mean. There is a clear line in HIP HOP w/ sample reliant producers, reveal they shit and you MIGHT hear something..been like that sense for ever.



I just think its cool that dude out of respect complied with Madlib’s request, just like I appreciate that he took the time to create the post.
========
Blood. Posts be TAKING HELLA LONG.
SO. Yeah. I would be lightweight heated.

But oddly geeked @ being contacted by M'lib. Nah mean.

neo said...

That's the prollem with y'all hip hop fans these days..someone may not feel exactly the same way about an artist you adore and all of a sudden they 'hatin'...

cute..

Jay elec has been overhyped..whether you agree or not and that's the reason the backlash was huge. If he was on a say, Donny Goines level you prolly won't have even noticed let alone blogged about it.

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